The Bahai faith has been around since the nineteenth century and was started by an Iranian named Mirza Ali Muhammad. It can be rightly called a cult offshoot of Islam, and history has it that Mr. Ali Muhammad was "murdered by Islamic fanatics in 1850 at the age of 31" (see Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter Martin, p. 271, Bethany House, 1985).
The Bahai faith has perhaps a good goal, but in trying to reach this goal it makes two grave errors. The first of course is that the Bible does not support the idea that all faiths are created equal. There are false gods, and there is one true God. There are false prophets, and there are true ones. Muhammad was a false prophet, but Moses was a true one. This is simple enough to understand.
But the Bahai faith seeks to tell us that Muhammad, although a false prophet, is somehow equal to Moses. How can this be? Even with evidence that false prophets like Muhammad were indeed false, the Bahai faith causes people to irrationally disregard the facts. Christianity teaches us to pay attention to the facts and to discern the true from the false (1 John 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:23).
The second problem is from a logical perspective, so much so that even atheistic agnostics like Bertrand Russell had enough sense to argue that all the faiths cannot be true, since they disagree. Islam says Jesus didn't die on the cross. Christianity says He not only did it, but He did it on purpose and there would be no salvation for mankind if He didn't. You cannot reconcile or ignore these kind of essential differences in some kind of gumbo soup religion that tries to unite everyone by ignoring essentials.
Thus this "faith" creates two very insurmountable problems that we as Christians must realize and determine that Bahai is not the way to go. Any thoughts or questions?
Topscholar1 wrote: we as Christians I'm not a Christian. I have been a Baha'i for thirty-four years. Am I allowed to post here?
Mr. sceptical: Of course you can post here. I sent you a private message on this forum which contains general rules. The comment about "we as Christians" was meant as a comment directed at my Christian brethren on the board. If you have not done it already, read your private message, and feel free to express yourself.
Okay, thank you. At Christian Forums, you invited me over here for a rational discussion. Who decides if a discussion is "rational"?
You are quite welcome. Who decides? No one really "decides" if a discussion is rational. There are "laws" of logic and reasoning that "decide," if any decision is to be made at all. I subscribe to basic logic and reasoning that you can find in any good college logic text. Fair enough?
No one really "decides" if a discussion is rational.
Good. When Christians are trying to convert me, they tend to decree that their views are rational and mine should be ignored, and then I am expected to give up my religion and become a Christian.
(see Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter Martin, p. 271, Bethany House, 1985)
What would you think of the idea of using Baha'i sources to discuss the Baha'i Faith?
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Arise, shine, for thy Light is come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. Isaiah 60:1
Topscholar1 wrote: No one really "decides" if a discussion is rational. Good. When Christians are trying to convert me, they tend to decree that their views are rational and mine should be ignored, and then I am expected to give up my religion and become a Christian. (see Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter Martin, p. 271, Bethany House, 1985) What would you think of the idea of using Baha'i sources to discuss the Baha'i Faith?
Some Christians can be just as irrational as some unbelievers. I say if your views can be shown to be illogical and unbiblical, then you should give up your beliefs, if rationality and Bible truth are of value to you.
I have no problem if you use Bahai sources to discuss the Bahai Faith. The source I quoted does also.
I say if your views can be shown to be illogical and unbiblical, then you should give up your beliefs, if rationality and Bible truth are of value to you.
Illogical I can understand, but why unBiblical? Why, if the Baha'i Faith is false, would I revert to Christianity instead of to a different religion?
I have no problem if you use Bahai sources to discuss the Bahai Faith. The source I quoted does also.
That's not what I meant. If you are discussing the Baha'i Faith, what do you think of the idea of YOU going directly to Baha'i sources for information instead of to Christian statements about the Baha'i Faith?
-- Edited by I_are_sceptical at 01:27, 2005-10-15
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Arise, shine, for thy Light is come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. Isaiah 60:1
Illogical I can understand, but why unBiblical? Why, if the Baha'i Faith is false, would I revert to Christianity instead of to a different religion?
That's not what I meant. If you are discussing the Baha'i Faith, what do you think of the idea of YOU going directly to Baha'i sources for information instead of to Christian statements about the Baha'i Faith? -- Edited by I_are_sceptical at 01:27, 2005-10-15
I apologize for taking so long to post. Been busy updating my website and doing other things. I am glad you seem to be in agreement with logic. Why unBiblical? Because the Bible is the Word of God, and if a "religion" does not line up with it, then it is false and not worthy of following.
As far as going directly to Bahai sources, I have none at the moment. I have no problem going directly to Bahai sources. I go to original sources all the time in my studies. However, since my Christian sources do not misquote or misrepresent the Bahai sources, there is really no need. I've checked behind the sources of my own, and they are usually accurate. So I'm not getting your point. Can we get on with the topic at hand and the points I made?
Can we get on with the topic at hand and the points I made?
Okay.
So -- what is the topic? That the Baha'i Faith is a false religion? I do not agree that it is false.
As for the points you have made, the way I see it your Christian sources totally misunderstand/misrepresent the Baha'i Faith. What you have been describing in this thread is not the religion I actually belong to.
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Arise, shine, for thy Light is come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. Isaiah 60:1
So -- what is the topic? That the Baha'i Faith is a false religion? I do not agree that it is false. As for the points you have made, the way I see it your Christian sources totally misunderstand/misrepresent the Baha'i Faith. What you have been describing in this thread is not the religion I actually belong to.
The topic is the "two main problems with the Bahai Faith." I have a rational problem and a Biblical problem with what Bahai teaches.
Now you say that what I have posted does not describe the religion you belong to. Fair enough. Perhaps you care to explain with checkable sources? Now I will somewhat grant that maybe my Christian source might have misunderstood something, but you will have to prove any misrepresentation. If you can prove any misrepresentation, I have no problem agreeing with the truth. We all can misunderstand something, but there are few excuses for misrepresentation. So I look forward to your information.
Now you say that what I have posted does not describe the religion you belong to. Fair enough. Perhaps you care to explain with checkable sources? Now I will somewhat grant that maybe my Christian source might have misunderstood something, but you will have to prove any misrepresentation. If you can prove any misrepresentation, I have no problem agreeing with the truth. We all can misunderstand something, but there are few excuses for misrepresentation. So I look forward to your information.
If someone disagreed with the teachings of Christianity, do you think they should read the New Testament? If you disagree with Baha'i teaching, wouldn't you want to read the Baha'i Scriptures for yourself?
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Arise, shine, for thy Light is come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. Isaiah 60:1
If someone disagreed with the teachings of Christianity, do you think they should read the New Testament? If you disagree with Baha'i teaching, wouldn't you want to read the Baha'i Scriptures for yourself?
Once again, I apologize for such a long delay in response. It's been a busy few weeks. If someone disagreed with the teachings of Christianity, I would want to know why and if they truly know what those teachings are. And yes, I think they should read the New Testament as well as the Old, since the New is based on the Old. I have no problem reading the Bahai Scriptures for myself. In fact, I think I have in the past. But it's been a while. So once again, document what you believe so we can discuss it.
If someone disagreed with the teachings of Christianity, I would want to know why and if they truly know what those teachings are. And yes, I think they should read the New Testament as well as the Old, since the New is based on the Old.
Okay, do you think a discussion of the Baha'i Faith should be based on what the Baha'i Faith teaches about itself, or on non-Baha'i statements clearly hostile to Baha'u'llah's claims, such as "Kingdom of the Cults"?
So once again, document what you believe so we can discuss it.
What do you want to discuss about it? Why it is false? I don't think I would be able to contribute anything to a discussion like that. However, I do have some questions about why I should give up my religion and become a Christian. Would you be interested in trying to answer them?
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Arise, shine, for thy Light is come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. Isaiah 60:1
Okay, do you think a discussion of the Baha'i Faith should be based on what the Baha'i Faith teaches about itself, or on non-Baha'i statements clearly hostile to Baha'u'llah's claims, such as "Kingdom of the Cults"? What do you want to discuss about it? Why it is false? I don't think I would be able to contribute anything to a discussion like that. However, I do have some questions about why I should give up my religion and become a Christian. Would you be interested in trying to answer them?
Well, so far all you've done is claim that Dr. Martin somehow misrepresented Bahai faith. You have provided no evidence of this. If we are going to have a discussion then let's stop dancing around the issues and deal with them. If what Dr. Martin said is accurate, then there's no problem. If it is not, then we have a problem to deal with. If your faith is different from what Dr. Martin described, then elaborate on how it is different and explain what you believe.
I want to discuss the topic of the forum, which centers on my two main problems with Bahai, be it your version or the one described in Dr. Martin's work. And let's not kid ourselves. Whether or not Dr. Martin is "hostile" or biased is not the issue. The facts are. So let's deal with those.
Well, so far all you've done is claim that Dr. Martin somehow misrepresented Bahai faith. You have provided no evidence of this. If we are going to have a discussion then let's stop dancing around the issues and deal with them. If what Dr. Martin said is accurate, then there's no problem. If it is not, then we have a problem to deal with. If your faith is different from what Dr. Martin described, then elaborate on how it is different and explain what you believe. I want to discuss the topic of the forum, which centers on my two main problems with Bahai, be it your version or the one described in Dr. Martin's work. And let's not kid ourselves. Whether or not Dr. Martin is "hostile" or biased is not the issue. The facts are. So let's deal with those.
I don't see much point in discussing the doctrines of my religion unless we first agree on whether a discussion of a non-Christian religion should be based on what that religion says about itself or on Christian statements that are openly hostile to the claims of that religion.
If you have not read Baha'i Scripture how do you know what the facts are, what the Baha'i Faith really teaches, whether Dr. Martin's statements are accurate or not?
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Arise, shine, for thy Light is come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. Isaiah 60:1
I don't see much point in discussing the doctrines of my religion unless we first agree on whether a discussion of a non-Christian religion should be based on what that religion says about itself or on Christian statements that are openly hostile to the claims of that religion. If you have not read Baha'i Scripture how do you know what the facts are, what the Baha'i Faith really teaches, whether Dr. Martin's statements are accurate or not?
Again, I apologize for the delay, but the holidays are always a busy time. I hope you had a blessed Christmas and a Happy New Year. Now on to business. The problem you seem to be having is that you seem to be implying that a Christian scholar such as Dr. Walter Martin, who extensively documents his work from primary source materials, cannot accurately represent the claims of another religion. I cannot agree with that kind of reasoning for two reasons. First, it is a logical fallacy to assume a Christian cannot accurately represent the teachings of another religion even though he disagrees with that religion. And second, since I've done extensive research and actually checked the references of many books over the years, even those of people like Dr. Martin, I can see no legitimate reason to call his integrity into question based on my research.
In fact, most of the books Dr. Martin used were published by the "Baha'i Publishing Committee" (now the Baha'i Publishing Trust). So now you're saying, in essence, that even your own religion's publishing company cannot be trusted? Dr. Martin listed at least 7 primary source materials in his bibliography showing that his information came from Baha'i sources.
Since you are the one making the claim that Dr. Martin is somehow inaccurate, it is YOU who must support such a claim. I have no evidence that he has misrepresented anything. His work is well documented with primary source material. So once again, you need to stop dancing around the issue and support your claims. I have no problem discussing the Baha'i faith based on what the religion says about itself, since even Dr. Martin used primary sources. Hostility is irrelevant. Accuracy is. You're saying Dr. Martin is inaccurate and I'm saying prove it. Otherwise, this discussion will be over.
And as I stated earlier, I have read some Baha'i scripture, but it has been a while.
In the first edition of "Kingdom of the Cults", I haven't checked the bibliography of the fourth edition, Dr. Martin cited, among others, "The Promised Day To Come" by Shoghi Effendi, and "All Things Made New" by John Willoughby.
Actually it's "The Promised Day *Is* Come" and John *Ferraby*. These errors remained in the second and third editions, which (I think) were published after Dr. Martin's death. My immediate suspicion, the first time I read the essay, was that Dr. Martin had not read our books at all. And neither did the publishers when they updated KotC.
And I note you didn't catch those mistakes either, despite your claim that you checked his sources.
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Arise, shine, for thy Light is come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. Isaiah 60:1
In the first edition of "Kingdom of the Cults", I haven't checked the bibliography of the fourth edition, Dr. Martin cited, among others, "The Promised Day To Come" by Shoghi Effendi, and "All Things Made New" by John Willoughby. Actually it's "The Promised Day *Is* Come" and John *Ferraby*. These errors remained in the second and third editions, which (I think) were published after Dr. Martin's death. My immediate suspicion, the first time I read the essay, was that Dr. Martin had not read our books at all. And neither did the publishers when they updated KotC. And I note you didn't catch those mistakes either, despite your claim that you checked his sources.
First, let me apologize for not reading this or responding much sooner. My schedule has become rather hectic. But I think this little discussion is just about over. Instead of bringing something substantive to this issue, you want me to believe that just because Dr. Walter Martin's publisher missed two insignificant typos, one in a book title and another in an author's last name, that this somehow proves you can't trust the substance of what Dr. Martin says about the Bahai faith? LOL. You can't be serious. Do you know what a non sequitur is?
And if you notice very carefully what I said, I said I have checked the references of many books over the years, not that I checked those specific ones you pointed out. If you're so concerned about minor typographical errors like that, perhaps you should contact the publisher and inform them of the error.
Anyway, unless you can come up with something better than this, it's been nice dancing around...but I'm tired...lol.
Instead of bringing something substantive to this issue, you want me to believe that just because Dr. Walter Martin's publisher missed two insignificant typos, one in a book title and another in an author's last name, that this somehow proves you can't trust the substance of what Dr. Martin says about the Bahai faith?
Yes, that's correct. That's what I'm saying it proves.
You can't be serious.
Why not?
If you're so concerned about minor typographical errors like that
I don't consider them minor, or typographical errors. They indicate sloppy research, as well as religious bigotry, because since Dr. Martin failed to read those books cover to cover, he approached Baha'u'llah's claims with his mind closed and his heart hardened.
unless you can come up with something better than this
I've been a Baha'i for two-thirds of my life. That is substantial evidence that I find Baha'u'llah's claims to be convincing. What evidence have you presented that will convert me to Christianity?
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Arise, shine, for thy Light is come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. Isaiah 60:1
